Criminal Defence Attorney Talk with Amy Lind

Today’s guest is Amy Lind.

Here’s our job talk with a criminal defense attorney.

Welcome to the Job Talk Podcast, where we talk with people who love their jobs.

Our guests open up about their challenges, surprises and secrets to success in their industries through conversation and we explore their careers, past work experiences, and the education that got them to where they are now.

When I was in high school, I didn’t exactly concentrate on my studies very hard I basically I used it as a social gathering spot.

I ended up with a lot of grades in the sixties and seventies.
And I can remember a teacher trying to help me, telling me that we’re in competition with your friends and classmates to get the best work possible so you can get into the school of your choice.

So I didn’t really understand that concept until much later when I went into college.

How were you in high school? What kind of a student were you? And did you always know that you wanted to get into law? So I was a good student, but I actually went to a fine art school.

So when I was in high school, I was acting, directing, singing, dancing and focusing a lot of my energy on that.

I didn’t even really do super academic classes.

But always a good student.

I think one of the people like one of those like A-type people, that puts everything into everything regardless of what it is.

Even if it’s like how terrible I am at Slow Pitch, I’ll still try really hard.

So definitely, definitely still a good student put a lot of work into everything, but at the time, I was trying to make the most out of high school and thinking, you know, there’s no way I’m going to be, you know, in the Grammys or the Oscars.

So I’ll do it now and I’ll worry about what I want to do after that.

I didn’t decide to go to law school until about two years into university, so I did not plan that at all.

I thought I would do psychology or social work, and it was actually through participating in a dance club that some people were like, You should go to law school.

So it wasn’t even really my idea.

I can’t even take credit for it.

Can you talk about the process of getting into law law school? I know you have to write an LSAT.

Is that correct? Yeah.

So there’s a couple different things you have to do.

First of all, you can’t go directly into law school.

You have to have a degree first or at least three years of schooling.

So most people get a full degree in arts.

You know, it’s pretty common to do psychology, business or political sciences.

And once you have a couple of years under your belt, then you can apply to law school.

Most people, on average, the average age going into law school was 27.

So they typically take a couple of years off do a couple of years of school and not necessarily in that order and then apply to law school.

You can go as a mature student as well, but that’s less common route.

So once you have a couple of years under your belt in terms of schooling, you can apply and you have to have taken the LSAT, which is a standardized examination that tests like your reading comprehension, some math problem skills and essay writing skills.

It’s like a full day test.

And then every school is different until they’ll look at your LSAT grade inevitably.

But then also some schools will look at your last three years of great in universities.

Some will look at your last two and then they combine those two, and that’s what determines whether you get in or not.

How can a student prepare to write an LSAT and are you only allowed to write it a certain amount of times? So you there are practice exams, so you can go to, for example, the university bookstore.

You can buy a little booklet that will give you practice exams and you can time yourself and do it.

You can also take out LSAT prep courses, which is just someone who did well on the LSAT at teaching you tips and tricks for it.

I didn’t do any of that.

Probably should have would have been a good idea.

But the biggest thing is that people don’t time themselves or that when they’re doing their practices.

And so that’s a huge important part because you are timed during the hours that you can continue to write them.

However, they average.

So if you do a really bad on one and really good on the other, they’re going to take the average of the two.

So there is a risk in continuously writing them as well.

OK, so you write the LSAT, you get your mark back, you apply for law school after that.

And may I ask where you went to law school Excuse me.

Yes.

So you can write your alphabet even before you apply or you might not get your grade back until you apply.

So I wrote my LSAT in September You had to apply in October.

This was I was in my third year of university.

Or no, sorry.

I was in my fourth year.

So I really waited.

And then I got my mark back in December.

So I’d already applied and taken the chance.

And I found out in March whether I was in.

But most people will not be as a little lazy about that.

I just went to the University of Alberta, and it was only place I applied, which is also not the best technique you definitely should apply across many different places.

But I only wanted to go the UofA.

The only place I applied.

Ok, is the level of competition.

Extremely.

Is it quite competitive? To get in.

To the UofA or to law school? Let’s let’s talk about your experience with the U of A.

Yes, I didn’t realize it perhaps at the time, but I think they said about 7% of applicants get in.

So you have to think that like an arts degree now is very difficult to get a job with.

Everybody has one.

So you have all these people coming out with sociology degrees, psychology, business degrees, and they don’t know what else to do.

So they apply to law school.

What advice would you give to somebody applying? Because they’re not just going to look at grades, are they? I know obviously grades and the average is important, but do they look at other things that you might volunteer to do or some of your personal interests? Does that play any factor into you getting in? So I was in law school, I think is a little different.

But I’ll be honest, from what we’re told about the admission process, it is your grades and your LSAT.

So every university will actually post on their website what they’re looking at.

So, for example, the UofA will tell you we’re going to look at your LSAT and we’re going to look at the last 60 credits of courses that you did, which is two years of university, and we’re taking 50% and 50% or giving you a grade the top x people get in period.

And the universities in B.C.

Look at your last 90 credits the last three years.

Some schools will weigh it differently so they’ll say you know 70% out sat 30% grades.

So every school’s different but most of them truly just look at your grades and your LSAT.

However they have something called rolling admissions.

And what that means is they’ll give people their admissions in February or March.

But there’s a lot of people who’ve applied to a lot of different schools, so they might reject some of the schools, in which case that school is going to start going down the line.

I had a friend in law school who didn’t find out until the week before school started that she got in.

When they start getting to that point, where they’re comparing you to someone else and they’re not sure where you fall, that’s when they’re going to look at your personal essay or your resume.

But it’s not the main thing the main thing truly is your grades and you’re all set to get into law school.

To get a job is a different story.

OK, and we’ll get into that when you’re how many years is law school in order to get your degree? And how how intense is it? Are you able to have a part time job while you’re studying law? Or are you just immersed in the education to become a lawyer? So the schooling is three years on top of whatever you’ve done before that you can do a fourth year.

If you want to do a mixed law and business degree.

It’s pretty immersive in the first year.

So I can only speak to the U of A, which is the place that I went.

But you take seven courses rather than five, and they’re full year long courses.

And the most intense thing is that the majority of the classes are 100% one examination, and that’s your grade.

So you’re doing your studies for an entire year and then you’re tested on it.

Some of them will have a midterm that’s worth 20 or 30%, but for the most part it’s pretty significant.

Examinations so the first year is pretty immersive.

You’re adapting, you’re also going to school with a bunch of other people who got A’s and you’re still curved.

So there is a lot more intensity to learning the volume of the information you’re learning.

But for me, I had a part time job in the second and third year of law school.

I think that that generally is not that common, but the, the amount of work like class load isn’t that much.

By the time you’re in second or third year, you’re in class maybe nine to 12 hours a week because you’re only in five classes.

But you’re there’s a lot of volume that you’re having to read in advance of your classes.

If you choose to.

Yeah.

You’re still going to run into a wide range of people.

I did keep up my grades.

I still kept on with an A average in law school, which was really by no means was I the smartest person there, but I think it was just a work ethic thing.

But I also was able to have a job and I was working 20, 30 hours a week in my third year.

Wow, that sounds stressful to me.

I had no fun and I didn’t party, so on balance, you know.

I think it’s important for our listeners to hear that though, because it’s the reality of the situation.

What are some of the classes in law school? And then we’ll we’ll talk about when you graduate and you decide on, I guess, what kind of a lawyer you want to be or what kind of law you want to practice.

So what are specifically some of the classes that you’re taking? Yeah.

So in your first year, there’s mandatory classes that everybody has to take.

So everyone takes like a basic criminal procedure.

Everyone takes constitutional law and torts, which is like personal injury type of stuff.

But there is such a wide range.

I focused on criminal so I could take sentencing.

I took constitutional litigation, which is arguing everything from Aboriginal rights to criminal prosecutions.

There’s advocacy classes.

There’s also like oil and gas or military law.

So there’s a wide range of courses.

There’s like tax stuff that I definitely was not interested in, but lots of people do.

And then there’s classes again that everyone has to take professional responsibility, ethics, things like that.

OK, so you get through law school, you graduate, I imagine you graduated with high marks.

Let’s what was your first step after you graduated? Do you immediately start looking for a job or maybe there’s a job placement? I don’t know.

I think it’s called Articling, actually, is it? That’s right.

Yeah.

OK, OK.

Yeah, it’s actually so crazy because as soon as you are in law school, like within the first month of your first year, you are already interviewing for jobs, which is insane.

So in first year, they have something called on campus interviews and that’s for summer position so that you could have a summer job between first and second year.

And that’s all civil and corporate law firms.

There’s not an opportunity for government work or criminal work at that stage.

And so these major firms will come, you’ll send in resumes and apply.

They will pick a few people interview and have you would by October you’ll have a job for your first year, which is I don’t know what they’re basing that off because you’ve been in law school for 5 seconds.

But that aside, you actually apply for your articles at the end of your second year.

So when you’re done your second year of law school applications for Articling happens that May and June and then you interview you get a job in June and you go and do your third year of law school so that by the time you’re done third year, you have a month off and you are starting articling.

So you don’t wait till you graduate.

And you actually do that during the law school process.

Not everybody gets an article, but most people do get an article even before they’re done.

Law school my first question with the law that you’re practicing is how do you decide whether you’re going to take a client on or not? That’s a tough one.

When you start in your first year, second year, you’re kind of just taking everything because you’re trying to learn.

It’s a steep learning curve.

Law school teaches you like textbook law doesn’t teach you how to practice law, and so you’re kind of taking everything that you can to build a practice and to try and get familiarity.

The biggest difference between civil and criminal is that in a big civil firm, you’re just working for EPCOR or some like Big Company and some partners giving you little projects to work on and criminal, right from the get go.

You have your own clients and you’re working on those clients.

So you’ll take a lot of pro-bono, a lot of legal aid, a lot of people who can’t afford, you know, like, say, for example, my fees as a ten year lawyer, the first year lawyer is going to take that and kind of take everything, including traffic tickets.

As you get further along in your career, you can be a little bit more I don’t want to say picky, but picky where you can start saying, you know, I’m only willing to take clients who can pay my fees or you know, now you’re not going to take up a murder file in your first year, but maybe, you know, by ten years out you have that experience.

So the business part of it really does play a major factor.

But the thing I think that most people ask is like, well, what if you don’t want to take a case because it’s criminal? So obviously there might be things that I’m not OK with.

I do draw the line at some things, and fortunately nobody forces you.

So if there’s something that you feel uncomfortable with, whether that’s the nature of the crime that the person is being accused of the person, maybe you just get a gut feeling.

You can just say, you’re not going to be best represented by me.

You deserve to have the best representation.

That’s what our system is built on, and I can’t give you that.

And so you can kind of turn that down.

I’ve only had that happen a handful of times it’s a weird place to draw the line, but for me, like, I just can’t take myself to represent someone who’s charged with a hate crime.

So I’m just not interested and that’s OK.

Can we talk about what your day to day is like when you when you arrive at the office and maybe we have to split that into two parts.

Maybe there’s a day to day when you’re working in the office and then a day to day when you have to appear in court.

Does that make sense? Yeah, OK.

The best the best thing about criminal law is that every single day is different.

And that is true for the cases and the clients that you’re dealing with, but also your day.

Sometimes it can be frustrating because you think you know how your day is going to go and then something erupts and doesn’t happen.

But if I’m going to court, typically I get to the office around 730.

Court starts at nine or ten depending on where your court is.

So I usually gather the information that I’ve already prepped and prepared, you know, refresh it in my mind and head to court.

Court court, like I said, starts at nine or ten.

If I’m in a trial, I usually meet with my client a few minutes beforehand.

That’s never the first time a meeting with them, obviously, and then it’s like a full day of court.

It’s usually from nine till four.

You’ll have a lunch break sometimes.

Sometimes you won’t.

I’m not really sure what to say in terms of the day to day.

It’s pretty like it’s it’s not as dramatic as you see on TV, but it is pretty similar.

Witnesses will get on the stand.

They’ll be questioned.

I’ll get to cross-examine them.

We’ll make argument and I’ll will come back home now.

My gosh, that just tells you right there.

I just called my office my home, because that is like kind of how it feels sometimes.

So after court you’ll come back to the office and usually you still have to deal with the stuff that was happening while you were gone, emails, messages or prepping for your next day because a trial isn’t always one day.

So there’s still work to be done when you get back to the office and on a trial in the midst of a multi day trial, I’m usually working into the evening so that’s like a try, I guess a court day, but it’s not always trial.

It’s sometimes will go to court for a bail hearing or for a guilty plea.

Or for something more minor, which right now because of COVID, we actually get to do by video.

So it’s a little bit easier to stay in the office.

If I’m having an office day, I can show up to work anywhere between 730 and nine.

I kind of have that flexibility and usually the first thing I’m doing is going through my emails to see what has come up.

I’m pretty hands on with my administrative staff, so I’ll also make sure that all my court appearances are handled, that I have client meetings, and then I start just going through police reports.

So I usually have a stack of files that police reports have come in on that I now need to go through to see, you know, is there a defense, can they prove that? And then once I’ve done that, I’ll set an appointment with my client.

So my days usually consist of a mix of going through the police reports and meeting with clients.

Not speaking to the specifics of the case that you were on, but could you speak to how you were feeling the first time you appeared in court to represent someone.

Well, OK, well, I think for over ten years, and that doesn’t include Articling.

So that’s been at the firm for 11 years.

And when I was in law school, I worked for Student Legal Services, which just lost you into helping people who can’t afford representation.

I do remember being like deer in headlights.

Like I, I didn’t know what to do or to expect, but surprisingly, the courts were very kind and just kind of directed me through the process.

I truly can’t remember what it felt like.

However, I think that I wouldn’t be the best person to ask because theater background, I’m used to like being on stage and I probably just faked it in some way.

But I think for the first five years I would struggle to sleep at night because I’d be like running through my head what I was going to do the next day and like, what if this happened? It was like a choose your own adventure.

And now it’s like, that doesn’t happen because you get used to it and you trust yourself a lot more.

Excellent.

What do you love about being an attorney? I think I like two things.

One, that it’s always different.

And two, I wanted to do social work partly, and with criminal law in particular, it is a lot of that.

You’re dealing with mental health, you’re dealing with addiction, you’re dealing with people who are at the lowest of their low, and they really, truly rely on you.

It really makes a difference.

You feel like you’re making a difference.

What are some of the more obvious challenges of being a lawyer.

While for criminal specifically, you’re not.

It’s kind of thankless.

You get questioned a lot about how can you represent those people? People think that you don’t care about crime or that, you know you’re like a sleazy car salesman.

So that’s pretty frustrating.

As a lawyer in general, the biggest challenge is that it’s not all glamor, it really isn’t.

You put in a lot of work and a lot of hours, and it can be very difficult to have a work life balance particularly when you’re young and in the first couple of years and you’re trying to build a practice, you feel like you’re working all the time.

And maybe we can get into some of the misconceptions that face, that lawyers face.

What what are some misconceptions out there that you’d like to maybe clarify or clear up? I think definitely that people should know it’s not glamorous.

I think we have this perception from a lot of TV shows that lawyers you know, and don’t get me wrong, we have nice houses and they take nice vacations.

And that’s true.

But this isn’t like Suits where you’re working in a fancy office and wearing nice clothes and who knows what you’re doing and every day is in sunset.

No, it’s a lot of hard work and it’s a lot of grueling work by yourself in your office.

You give up a lot.

It’s all consuming and it’s very difficult for a lot of particularly women to start families because it is all consuming on your life.

So that’s really important.

It’s not all glamor and galas I think that’s probably generally true for lawyers.

The only other thing I can think of is really specific to criminal law, which is, like I said, that we like don’t care and that we are OK with people committing crimes and that we just represent bad people and that’s not true at all.

And I always tell people, you’ll say that until you need me because you’ve been wrongly charged with something and we see it more and more and more unfortunately.

And so I still care.

I still don’t want crime to be committed.

However, I also strongly believe that people deserve a fair trial.

Sometimes when I see some of the high profile cases often down in the U.S., I’m surprised in certain circumstances, a fairly serious case that humor comes into the courtroom is are do you have any stories of any kind of comedy or humor that’s taken place.

Yeah, I, I guess technically they’re public knowledge, so that’s definitely my coping mechanism place in time for sure.

But it always comes up in little ways.

I had I do remember this one case I was doing.

It was a drug pipeline case, which for people who don’t know, Edmonton to Jasper to Vancouver.

They call that the pipeline of drugs getting them in and out of Alberta.

And so I was talking to an officer, cross-examining an officer about you know, some of the things that he were saying, he said were suspicious about this vehicle, were totally innocuous, like this person was driving to Kelowna.

And I was like, please, have you never been to Kelowna? And he was like, no, I actually haven’t.

I’ve never left Alberta.

And I was like, OK, you know, we’re talking about there was a garbage bags in the truck.

And I’m like, oh, no, not garbage bags.

Like, what can possibly be in them? Do rake your leaves? And he was like, I actually don’t have a yard.

So it’s just like a constant thing where it’s like, you know, it’s like I swear to God I do do some stuff, you know? So it’s like little things like that where you’re almost like making fun of that officer for like the sort of like normal, innocuous things but it also had some really crazy things happen.

Like, I had to I’ll keep this as vague as possible, but I had a crown prosecutor take a piece of evidence that was believed to have drug residue and then put it in their mouth and I was like, what’s happening? So then, you know, later on when that prosecutor held up a little bag and was like, what is this? Is this drugs? I was like, why don’t you put in your mind? So just some of the stuff that you’re dealing with here, like, I’m in a circus here.

I’m not sure, but it’s I would say that humor comes out more in the office with each other, making making light of situations or making fun of people we try to sort of maintain decorum or professionalism in the courts.

OK, I only have a few more a couple more questions for you.

That might be a lie, but we’ll see how we do here.

Are there any surprises? Has anything surprised you through your career as a lawyer? I feel like in criminal law at some point you become numb to them because the amount of crazy things that happen.

But I would say there’s been a couple surprises not necessarily for the better.

So I was surprised.

I went through life and through school and through my job thinking that I am very capable and competent and never felt that my sex or gender ever had an impact.

It is astonishing the amount of sexism that still exists in law.

And what I mean by that is when I was in law school, I had someone that we were going to help for free and they said, you know, I want a fourth year.

And I’m like, there’s no fourth year in law school.

You get me or you get No.

One.

And they were like, Actually, I just want a male.

And I was like, OK, hey.

And I still, 11 years out, get a similar type of thing where some people want females and most people trust the women equally to do a job.

But every once in a while you’ll get the person where they’re on hold for a lawyer.

And I pick up the phone and they’re like, Yeah, I’m holding for a lawyer.

And after that and you’re speaking to one.

Oh yeah.

It’s very frustrating.

And I realized that maybe they just think I’m an assistant, and it’s not clear to them that I’m a lawyer, but I know for certain that that would not be happening if a male lawyer had picked up the phone.

So do you find that to be frustrating and I’ve heard a lot of stories from friends in law firms about being treated by opposing counsel in a way that it’s very misogynist and that it’s unfortunate.

And and that is changing.

But I think there is still this idea that law is a male world which is crazy because 50% of people graduating law school are female.

Females are leaving the profession faster than anyone else.

And also, like women are typically just to put some stereotypes out there, more A-type, more prepared, more organized males have a lot of moxie, a lot of intelligence.

But that doesn’t mean that they’re always going to be the ones to be best representing certain people.

So I guess that’s really surprising and still really frustrating that you feel like you come into the conversation having to prove yourself and a male can come into the conversation already having that respect, which is really surprising and annoying when you’re in a profession that I think most people already respect.

So that has been a surprise in terms of the practice of law.

I guess the surprise has been there’s so many situations that arise that don’t already have an answer.

And you think with how long was that an issue? Everything should have already happened and have an answer, but it hasn’t.

And there’s always a need for creative reasoning, I guess.

What do you like to do when you’re not practicing law? So I do play sports.

I play a soccer team in a slo-pitch.

team exercise is super important for stress relief as well, but I still channel that like fine arts high school day.

So I got so lucky when I started law I had no idea this was a thing, but my old high school and a group of lawyers from the community created a foundation together to raise money for the arts.

So that’s a fantastic thing I’m involved in.

But I also sit on the board for Shakespeare in the Park which is for like Park.

It runs for three or four weeks and it’s just a really super approachable way to get into Shakespeare.

And I actually auditioned to be a fairy when I was in Grade ten, so it goes back again to those days.

So if you don’t know about it, it’s wonderful it’s in Hawrlak Park, it’s $35.

I think there’s like students some days that are cheap and it’s from seven to like ten and there’s such a show and there’s popcorn and licorice and wine and beer and just a good, great time.

And I always plug people to go on Canada Day because then you’re in park and you can go watch the fireworks.

So I kind of still try to, you my interest in fine arts to kind of give myself a balance.

And I will say I think that that’s a flaw that most lawyers have is that they don’t have something else going on and they should.

And for our listeners, that is for people living in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, I imagine your or your skill as an performer or an actor helps you practice law as well? I think so.

Both in terms of not having the same concern over nerves, but also in terms of, you know, when you’re making a closing argument to a jury that jury is no longer listening to what witnesses or accused persons have to say, they’re listening to you.

So you need to tell a story in a convincing way and that’s not from reading from a piece of paper.

So I always say that learning monologues when I was in fine arts and learning how to present and how to be compelling was a technique that really surprisingly worked out in law because I don’t need to read from a piece of paper.

I have a very good technique on how to learn or memorize closing arguments.

Yes.

What advice can you give to somebody that’s trying to decide if they want to pursue a career in law? Is there any advice you can give that person? Yeah, a couple of things.

One, I would say talk to as many lawyers as you can because we love to talk about our jobs.

We love to tell you what it’s really like, and we’re interested in telling you about the different career paths you can do, what law schools really like, what practicing law is really like.

And I’ve had high school students shadow me, so reach out because people will take you under their wing and try to help you as much as they can and talk to as many different ones as you can as well.

And that includes me.

If you have listeners who are interested in speaking to someone, I’m always happy to take a phone call and, you know, get into some of the nitty gritty that maybe aren’t even on this podcast, I think as well.

Find a mentor, find a really good mentor who can give you advice throughout the stages of your career.

And that includes not just that the nature of law like you can read a textbook, but how to handle your career decisions, how to handle opposing counsel, things that they don’t teach.

You find a good mentor and use them as much as you can.

And the last thing I would say is if you are going to go into law, I went straight from high school, straight and into university, straight into law school, and I was a lawyer by 24 and that worked for me.

Now I’m 35 and I’ve been a lawyer for ten years, but the thing I hear from a lot of people is that they wish they had taken a bit of time before they went into law.

So I would say do that travel, take a big trip, do something because law and law school can be all consuming, particularly in the first five years before you’re established, before you have, you know, that flexibility to have a work life balance.

It’s pretty much an all consuming profession and you’re going to be putting a lot of work and effort and time into it.

So take some time to do some of the things you really want to do first.

Excellent advice.

Is there anything that I didn’t ask you that you would like to share, or do you think we we we covered it? Well.

No, I mean, I think I think we mostly covered it.

And I guess I want to make sure that I’m not leaving your listeners with the perception that law is all work.

It is a lot of work and that we constantly remind people of that.

It’s a lot of fun.

And if you find the type of law that you really like and if you are able to find hobbies outside of law that you like, it’s not it’s not just work.

It’s not always 90 hour weeks.

It’s not you know, always this grueling process.

You make some really good friends, you meet some really awesome people, and you’re going to have a lot of opportunities to open up for you because of the profession.

Excellent.

And with that, Amy, thank you so much for joining us today.

It’s been an absolute pleasure talking to you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you for having us.

Thank you for tuning in.

To the Job Talk podcast.

For more information, please visit us at TheJobTalk.com